Holy See Embassies must be Shut Down!
Context
In Ireland in 2011, The Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore and Fine Gael closed down the
Republic of Ireland's Embassy to the Holy See. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste
said that this was done to save money and because it "yielded no economic
return". So Ireland wised up and decided to shut down it's Embassy to the Holy
See.
Reaction
Hopefully other countries will see sense and do the same as Ireland did. It is
good that there is an international storm about the closure. It may make many
nations reconsider their Embassies to the Holy See.
A move dedicated to Our Lady of Knock, Queen of Ireland, began a postcard campaign
to urge the reopening of the Embassy. The postcards were to be sent to elected
representatives to lobby their party leaders as part of the drive to reopen the
Embassy. The organisation would have got most of its support through the
publicity given by Catholic hate rags, Alive! and Catholic Voice. Those papers
appeal to a fundamentalist weak-minded readership.
Some were upset merely at the thought that the government lied about the reason
for the closure. The embassy was cheap to run and it was closed allegedly to
save money. Saving money would have only been a minor part of the reason for the
closure. But it could still have been a part. The government did not really lie
- it merely exaggerated the importance of saving the money! It is typical of the
Catholics who have an agenda to refuse to admit this.
The Embassy was a very small affair. The amount of fuss created by Catholics
over its closure is disproportionate and illogical. Such a small embassy could
not help Ireland make a bigger impact on world affairs. The claim that the
embassy was a global listening post and losing it is seriously foolish is
ludicrous.
The front page Irish Catholic of February 16 2012 said that 99.5 % of
correspondence to the government was critical of the decision. There was no
mention of the fact that this was unsurprising as thousands of those postcards
had been sent. However some letters are actually quoted.
"Not only does the decision betray and lack of appreciation for the historic,
cultural and religious ties that bind our two states together but the reason for
doing so on the grounds that it 'yielded no economic return' is deeply hurtful
and insulting to many Catholics." This comment is disgusting. If spending money
on an Embassy just because it is a relic and because some Catholics want it to
be kept open is a justification then the writer needs the head examined. And the
Holy See is not a true state. And what about the Catholics who think the Church
should be about doing good and not about Embassies and diplomatic relationships?
"I voted Fine Gael in the last election in the belief that they might represent
some understanding of Christian values. With the closure of what is so valued by
many it seems not so and I certainly will not be voting Fine Gael again."
It is beyond belief that anybody would consider the any political party to care
much about Christian values when it doesn't do a better job of looking after the
hospitals. Money is spent on the luxury of maintaining sectarian schools while
people die in hospital owing to poor funding. And Fine Gael introduced divorce
in 1995. And it gave away Irish Sovereignty meaning that abortion will be
legalised in Ireland at some point. Christian values my ass!
It is a disgrace that somebody would refuse to vote a party just because of it got
the Embassy closed! Fine Gael from the Catholic point of view could have done
some greater "evil" instead such as maybe introduce divorce on demand or
abortion! The commentator clearly thinks that the party's neglect of the Health
Service of Ireland is a trifle compared to closing down the Embassy!
The critics of the decision to get rid of the Embassy usually claim that they
will not vote for Fine Gael again. It is alarming that they would be that stupid
and fanatical. It is too negative. Even if the closure were unjust, is it enough
to make people want to vote Fianna Fail back into power after the mess it left
Ireland in? Who are they going to vote for? It is interesting that the
introduction of civil partnerships by Fianna Fail did not get the same amount of
ire!
"If half the world sees the value in good relationships with the Holy See and
involvement with it, how do we expect to be viewed in years to come?"
Those nations have been misled. The Church though it says a Catholic who refuses
to believe what they are expected to believe as a Catholic is excommunicated it
still tries to give the impression than there are more Catholics than what there
actually are. This is at the root of its power. And this is the driving force
behind the Holy See's ability to pretend to be a state.
We don't see other nations in outrage over the closure! Don't be so delusional!
"While the Holy See and the Irish Hierarchy may be justifiably faulted for their
actions (or lack of action) in recent years, surely the proper way to remedy
those deficiencies is through diplomatic channels rather than throwing a tantrum
and acting unilaterally?".
The Church must make rules and laws that safeguard children. All organisations
must.
The argument is saying that the state needs to be close to the Holy See to do
this. This is rubbish. The state needs to have good laws in place. That is all
that is needed. The Holy See let Ireland down by inaction over clerical child
abuse but that does not change the fact that the problem was bad Irish laws in
the first place.
The state can watch and negotiate with the Church in Ireland without having an
Embassy to the Holy See.
And the Church does not improve itself through diplomacy. It only established
some child protection rules because it was forced to and for centuries did
nothing to protect the innocent. It persistently refuses to be transparent on
exactly what it covered up and how and why.
"What bothers me and my many friends is what seems to be at the root of the
strange move of the embassy closure - namely the growing secularist agenda that
is being now openly promoted by the Tánaiste and his party."
True secularism is neutral on religion. If it is not then it ends up favouring
one religion over others. Thus getting rid of the Embassy to a religion is only
right. Catholicism habitually misrepresents secularism and highlights the
stupidity of the aggressive secularists as if they reflected true secularists.
Keeping Church and state separate is not "strange".
Ireland has established excellent economic relations with China. True Catholics
would try to destroy that for they see this as helping to support a Communist
nation that persecutes the Catholic Church. We are better off with the
secularists than the true Catholics in power! A lot of them are of the ilk of
Michael Voris of Real Catholic TV who wants a world in which only Catholics have
the right to vote.
Silly Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, claimed in Strasbourg that the decision to
close the Embassy was against the will of most of the people! This is nonsense
for most blogs and comments support the closure. We all see that most people we
know don't care or know enough to care.
Most people who want the Embassy reopened just want to take away the rights of
others by undermining the separation of Church and state. This is very obvious
in the work of the Ireland Stand Up campaign with its prayers and etc on the
postcards. There is no concern for how the relationship is supposed to benefit
the country. It is all about exalting the power of the papacy.
Mary Kenny on page 5 of the same issue of the Irish Catholic asked if the
Vatican (she should say Holy See) could really be considered a state. She said
that she thinks that Geoffrey Robinson who wrote the The Case of the Pope is
over-legalistic (Since was she an expert in law? Can't she provide any examples
of his over-legalism? Who does she think she is criticising an analysis by a top
lawyer? Is she trying to make out that the letter of the law does not matter
that much when it says the Holy See is not a state? Is she doing this to confuse
and manipulate?) when he gives his reasons for stating the Holy See is not a
state. She feels he ignores the fact that in history and culture it is treated
as a state and that is just as important as laws and legislation. We make
tomorrow's history and culture today. It is time for change. To make that change
its important that every nation scrap its Embassy to the Holy See.
Creating an Embassy to some some warlike religion - maybe an Islamic sect -
would make more sense than creating one to the Holy See.
The controversy to get the Embassy restored is strange. People who claim that
the Embassy being open will help Ireland to value the Church, marriage, life and
denominational schools are clearly showing that they care about Church laws not
people. To value marriage would require discouraging cohabitation. It would
encourage the Catholics to say that they oppose homosexual acts as wrong and
dangerous and not because they hate homosexuals. The Catholics will pretend that
it is not a personal attack but a moral argument. Morality is the view that we
are obligated to do certain good things and if we don't then we should suffer
for it in retribution. Morality is vindictive. So the Catholics are lying.
The homosexuals in a loving relationship will inevitably see all opponents, and
Catholics in communion with Rome are the worst, of that relationship as enemies.
What about their rights and needs?
The Church teaches that sex in itself is not an act of love and only becomes
such in the context of marriage - and not just marriage but marriage recognised
as real and valid by the Catholic Church. This implies that the state should not
allow civil partnerships for gay people and should not protect their
relationships.
The respect for life that Catholics go on about really means that abortion must
not be allowed even to save the mother's life. The argument that abortion these
days is a lie and a distraction from the cruelty of the Church. Abortion would
still be banned if most women needed it to survive. Also, in poorer parts of the
world abortion is needed to save the woman.
And denominational schools are about conditioning the young and isolating them
from points of view that do not square with the Church.
Some people who are against the closure do not realise all this. They have got
very upset at the thought that the government has lied about the reasons for the
closure. Few believe that the Embassy was indeed closed to save money. They
think it was done to spite the Holy See. I think the spite was one of the
reasons. The prime reason was to decisively separate Church and state in a
symbolic gesture. It was a call to start the work that needs
doing to bring about proper freedom from religious ideology. If the state had
admitted that the prime reason was to help separate Church and state and to live by
not aggressive secularism but true secularism and that a benefit would be saving
money this would have been much better. It would have prevented having the
irrational knee-jerk reaction that many took.